The discussion prior to April 30 Tweeting got so voluminous that I split the initial summary between two pages. These are all important topics, and there's no way we can do them all justice during the tweeting, so these are also the basis for future conversations -- jon
Here's the overall index of discussions:
jon (in email): We all have the same goals and it's just a matter of figuring out how to work together successfully. i don't think Shoq's trying to get people to abandon #p2. Somehing to keep in mind is that Shoq's an unknown quantity to a lot of people. Some of the pushback on #p4p is probably due to people not understanding the goals or thinking that the bridging tag should be #p2. Some may be due to people saying "do we really want to join Shoq's tribe?"
kindlejunkie: it was stated in an earlier post that no one wants to replace #p2 with #p4p, but that is exactly what I was urged to do through private channels. The mixed messages I'm getting about the #p4p tag are a barrier to acceptance.
ryking: And let me just state for the record: Several of us have compared notes and came to realize that you were deceitful in trying to advance your agenda; name-dropping, cajoling, leaving out facts with the people you tried to persuade to use p4p behind the scenes.
Shoq: Because you can seize a tag, doesn't mean you should. But if you keep doing that, the issue may be moot, because you will win by brute force, simply overpowering their mission.... You seem so invested in having no tag but P2? Perhaps you secretly want the TCOTs to later paint it as "that Gay/Diversity" group of leftists? Or the Left WingNut Ryking community?
jon (in email): My stylistic and occasional intellectual differences with Ryking shouldn't obscure the fact that I think he and I are very much part of the #p2 tribe. I feel the same way about all the other active #p2 members.
ryking: You came out with personal attacks against me when you wrote comment #34 (which I've screencapped, BTW) simply because I had the "audacity" to challenge you. I think that says a lot about how egotistical you are, and how much p4p is about YOU, not the advancement of left-wing politics or the growth of Twitter's left-wing community. Are you pushing this because the DNC or some group hired you to do so? I'm not being snarky here, I'm asking in all seriousness. And if you are, I think non-Twitter-using voters are the ones that the Democratic GOTV efforts should be focused on. I also think, if you have a financial stake in p4p's adoption, that you should disclose that.
Shoq: I simply came at this, seeking to use a tag robustly, and diversely, but not wanting to step on one that already existed. There may be several ways to consolidate the interests and move forward with p2and p4p objectives in complete harmony. The entire idea of this forum and tweetchat was to just have a discussion about it in the daylight. I have no interest in forcing anything on anyone, or I would have simply started p4p as a full time effort (not an experiement), and taken anyone that wanted to come along. I have many ideas about how things can fuse into one lovely community with almost no issues. So long as the p2 community doesn't feel stepped on in any way. And the last thing i wanted was a food fight :)
Life beyond Twitter
Shoq: #p2 fails the 3 char minimum for Indenti.ca., which could be larger than Twitter soon . And it will be for other services, too.
Jon (on the phone): So we'll call it p2pt0 on Identi.ca. We are already @p2pt0 on Twitter, firstname.lastname@example.org or something like that.
ryking: Who cares about Indenti.ca? We're discussing Twitter. You want to set-up p4p there, go ahead. I couldn't care less.
Shoq: And even if they [#tcot] are a force? Guess why? It's because they have a website that supports their channel, and that channel is general enough to allow most of their team to play. Who will maintain that site for an umbrella p2? I would be happy to do it for p4p, or any other tag that is NOT tied so heavily to one tribe's agendas.
ryking: p2 doesn't need an umbrella site, but if some of us thinks it does, we can cross that bridge later. Maybe to Tweetleft.com.
karoli: tags extend much farther than twitter. For example, Flickr has the largest collection of tagged images on the web. That's a powerful collection of metadata and discoverable content. It is foolish to ignore tags as a tool for discovery.... Twitter is the new shiny thing, but it won't be the only shiny thing, nor will it be the permanent home of progressive or conservative alike.... Google indexes Twitter, identi.ca, Friendfeed, and now Facebook. imagine the power of consistent tagging across just those four sites. that's not social media; it's a practical act to invite discovery by anyone looking.
ryking: The problem is that few people spread themselves among so many social networking sites, and those that do don't tend to their various networks well.
karoli: I can post once to Twitter and it goes to Facebook, identi.ca, their federated laconica instances and Friendfeed. Social graphs do not overlap in most of those cases, because as you correctly point out, most people do not frequent all four. However, by broadcasting, I open the conversation to a far wider gamut.
ryking: But what good is such a broadcast if you don't have sufficient time for follow up and interaction? But this is neither here nor there. I'm talking about a Twitter-specific issue because Twitter is the social network I use.
Shoq: Facebook is 250 million people, Linked in is 60 million, and you think Twitter is all that matters? Are you on FriendFeeder? What about Ping? Do you understand Open Social?
ryking: I don't care about other social networks. Like most people, I don't spread myself out to four, or five, or twelve. Other than having plenty to do offline myself, no individual can sufficiently manage so many networks unless they get paid to do so, given the time it would take. And if you're so gung-ho about other networks and think Twitter isn't all that significant, why start with Twitter? Why not start elsewhere, build success if you can, and then try to incorporate Twitter?
Shoq: Twitter is not only not guaranteed to succeed, but it may not even be here a year from now. We don't want to tie MOBILIZATION to the commercial fate of one small company.
Transpartisanship on Twitter
Shoq: I've heard some pretty good ideas from a few conservatives (rarely, but they can happen). I'd like a slogan that doesn't run them off from the outset.
jon: Hashtags like #bipart, #gov20, and #nptech are already active in the bi/multi-partisan space and if you're going that route you'd want to coordinate with them -- as well as people from #sgp, #hhrs, #tcot, etc. on the conservative side.
adrielhampton: As a former nonpartisan and as an open gov advocate, I have found that there are plenty of reasonable people on Twitter who are open and reform minded, regardless of party.
jon (in email): i don't see things primarily through a left/right lens. On many of the issues I care about, libertarians are good allies (even though i disagree witht hem on a lot of stuff); on many issues, even though the right may be worse, marginalization by the "progressive" community is still pretty bad.
adrielhampton: The nice thing about Twitter is how many very engaged non-traditional actors there are. Bank reform, for example, would be supported as a progressive (or p4p) issue by a large contingent of Republicans and Libertarians. Also, Twitter and its tags are very tech-heavy, and many of those folks have a libertarian populist view.... tcot is folks shouting to each other in a circle - I'd like to see the left do more organizing and evangelizing on important issues that have broad-spectrum support.
Progressives vs. conservatives on Twitter
MarcoPoloRedux: Have conservatives 'out organized' us on twitter? Perhaps temporarily with the exclusivity of #tcot - but hey, have you ever been to a country bar? They line-dance like soldiers to "Achy Breaky Heart", so I'm not surprised that they quickly marched in lockstep to one principle hashtag. Progressives not so much. (Ever been to Cochella? Dirty naked liberal hippies dance to a decidedly more chaotic drummer. - which is a good, hot (and sexy) thing)
jon (in a blog post): On Twitter ... conservatives have out-organized progressives ... which makes it all the more critical to apply techniques like #fem2's effective conferences and Twittercasts, #dayofsilence's and #rword's outreach-to-Twitterati, or #amazonfail's attracting coverage and building community...
karoli: The tcot tag will die. It's only a matter of time. It is twitter specific and nonsensical. Progress will continue. I would like a tag that connotes progress, without the versioning.
ryking: three weeks ago according to wefollow.com, there were 500+ Twitter users registered as users of the tcot tag with a total of 600,000 Twitter followers under them. As I write this, there are now 819 Twitter users registered at wefollow.com as users of the tcot tag, with a total of 915,060 followers. And you can bet all of those followers are using the tcot tag, without having registered at wefollow.
karoli: Twitter will become something else one day. On that day, the tcot tag will be meaningless, and they will start over again.
ryking: Yes, but until that day comes...
Shoq: TCOT Is completely and entirely irrelevant ...they are self destructing as we speak, and gearing some networking decision upon what they (never decided) is simply silly.
ryking: Tcot has the edge both in terms of a head start and GOP support; since we're trying to build something from the grass roots up, it's harder to make headway ...I am not the only one on Twitter who wants to counter tcot.
karoli: tcot is irrelevant to me. don't care that there is a tcot tag that has traction, because it represents nothing in the long run. it is sparking and it will die, like a flare lit for a short time.
jon: In The Difference, Scott Page shows the advantages of cognitive diversity. in Cognitive evolution and revolution: #polc09 and a #diversityfail, I illustrated how Twitter hashtags can enable effective collaboration by marginalized groups. In a political environment where the vast majority of youth, blacks, Latinos and Latinas, LGBTQs, migrant rights activists, and feminists oppose conservative policies, this potentially creates a huge advantage for progressives ... if they prioritize diversity.
jon (in email): #p2 has been acting as a place where progressives and conservatives troll each other and that certainly wasn't our intent.
ProfChandler: What can be done about trolls, hacks, rudeness and set-ups from right-wingers?
jon (in email): it happens all the time. simple filtering takes care of most of it for now and we can do more complex things if needed. we discussed it at one of the earlier chats. i have at least one post (on Liminal States) on trolls on Twitter. i filter out cross-posts to #tcot
because many of them are trolls
Shoq: Ryking, Just because you like to post anything you come across to #P2, doesn't mean that's what it was intended for. All that does is make noise for the people it was intended to serve.
ryking: And shoq? A simple search at search.twitter.com of "shoq tcot" will show that you like to troll them, too. As a matter of fact, you have, on more than one occasion, retweeted my tcot-tagged snark. If you think being snarky to tcotters somehow how disqualifies my views in this forum, well...
Are all progressives left-wing?
ryking: The definitions of "progress" also vary between left-wingers and right-wingers.
ryking: There are no such things as non-left-wing progressives.
karoli: I ... personally know moderate conservatives who believe in progress on certain fronts; e.g. healthcare, green issues, etc. that have seemed to be the exclusive province of the Progressive movement. I am a believer in inclusion, not exclusion,
bphoon: I know language and I know branding and "left-wing" has a different connotation than "progressive".I think you define "progressive" too rigidly and narrowly. In popular vernacular, "progressive" connotes a "bigger tent" than "left-wing". "Left-wing" connotes the extreme; "progressive" connotation includes a broader range of thinking that includes the whole spectrum from centrists to the extreme left wing. It's a more inclusive term than you make it out to be.
ProfChandler: Left-wing is something that is very misunderstood, for the most part, in the United States. I like to think of myself as a radical left wing person INSIDE, but I doubt that anyone in the USA would even listen to my thoughts because there is a BLOCK to anything LEFT or radical or Marxist or neo-marxist. There is so much hatred against the left-wing that I would rather hide behind the progressive shield. It sounds so nice and open. Liberal is a term that I would rather never hear again.